The Future of Feathers UI: Part 2 — Haxe and OpenFL

hugo

@TeotiGraphix I'm with you.
For me, the reason I'm interested on Feathers UI only now, is the possibility to fill the gap with rich XML UI on Haxe/OpenFl and finally may have a viable alternative to Flex/AIR/MXML.

I know that this is not a port, but a new stack but would be similar to FlexAIR/MXML environment.

TeotiGraphix

@joshtynjala I know I said this on Facebook a couple months ago, but seriously, down the road IF YOU NEED HELP I want to help with this, please. 🙂

joshtynjala

TeotiGraphix I hear you loud and clear. I will probably take you up on that offer!

Right now, I need to focus on the Kickstarter, and getting basic things like the public repo set up. After that, I'll be able to catch my breath, take stock, and figure out where contributors like you can make the most impact.

TeotiGraphix

joshtynjala I hear you loud and clear. I will probably take you up on that offer!

Word big bird, you have my email. Don't be shy. 🙂

TeotiGraphix

For others, just to give a bit of context and I know I have said this before. I basically created the FalconJX transpiler as an alternative to the FalconJS code Adobe donated that was basically spaghetti prototype, to try and keep AS3 a viable language back in 2011-2013 compiling to js.

This experiment failed miserably for what I was trying to accomplish, we did get Hungry Heroes compiled and ruining in Web way back then, Renaun did. (Randori compiler)

https://github.com/RandoriAS/randori-compiler

Moral, I was going to start and create more "targets" for FalconJX, like Android and others. I then realized AS3 was a dead language because of the byte code crap and Adobe.

Anyway, this is bringing back feelings I had back then, I spent over 1000 hours on those compilers for free, just to try and do what I was saying above, and it was a total waste of time.

I am hoping maybe it really wasn't(for my experience) but time will tell.

joshtynjala

TeotiGraphix Anyway, this is bringing back feelings I had back then, I spent over 1000 hours on those compilers for free, just to try and do what I was saying above, and it was a total waste of time.

The first time I had ever tried touching the code of a compiler was by adding improvements to the JS emitters in the Royale/FlexJS compiler. I learned a lot from reading your code. It eventually led me into lower level modules of the compiler. Now, other Royale contributors occasionally pay me to make improvements to the compiler.

Additionally, my understanding of the internal workings of the compiler led me to create the AS3 & MXML VSCode extension, which has over 20K unique installs, according to the VSCode Marketplace.

Getting something like MXML working in Feathers UI for Haxe/OpenFL should benefit greatly from my experience with compilers earned by working on these projects.

So, let me just say thanks for all of your hard work! It may not have gone in the direction that you wanted, but there were still benefits in other ways.

joshtynjala

To add further context, when @TeotiGraphix mentions FalconJX, he is talking about the part of the Apache Royale compiler that generates JavaScript.

TeotiGraphix

joshtynjala Yup and basically I donated the code back to Apache that I worked on from the Randori project.

So I started IN Apache, then I forked the compiler, then developed the Randori compiler and ExternC compiler, SWC Bundel libraries, then merged that code back into the Apache Royale transpiler(before it was called Royale used to be FlexJS/FalconJX) that I started originally, crazy I know.

TeotiGraphix

joshtynjala So, let me just say thanks for all of your hard work! It may not have gone in the direction that you wanted, but there were still benefits in other ways.

You know Josh, that really means a lot, seriously. I am now thinking we have some destiny that is going to merge sooner than later.

Shaun_Max

I would like to know more about Apache Royale and its future! Any word on that?

TeotiGraphix

Shaun_Max I would like to know more about Apache Royale and its future! Any word on that?

I honestly don't know and why I had such a problem with AS3. Not so much it's not possible but adding things to that compiler when it was actually using the SWF byte code to do the final resolution of the AST verification, it was brittle code for sure.

What I am talking about here is Haxe and the fact it's almost the same setup but with a language that is verified by it's own analyzer/parser. This means you can add anything you want to it.

To answer your question @Shaun_Max, Royale is tied to AS3 forever.

Shaun_Max

TeotiGraphix I just wanted to know, if its something that could be a pure alternative for our current Starling+Feather+AIR in future!

TeotiGraphix

Shaun_Max "Royale is tied to AS3 forever."

EDIT - Royale is for developing in AS3 and producing as JS target. So Starling/Feathers/AIR has nothing to do with Royale project.

You see the Hungry Heroes was a Starling game that Renaun ported with the Randori framework. The compiler I worked on actually was able to cross compile Starling framework to javascript in 2013.

Shaun_Max

TeotiGraphix Yes I understand the thing about Hungry Heroes, but you would have seen discussions on various threads about, which is going to be the best alternative to avoid AIR. But I dint hear anyone talking about Apache Royale, not sure why? May be its in beta phase or not production ready. I am just curious to know if there was another reason to it! Also I just wanted to point out that Harman did mentioned about their discussion with Moonshine IDE team, so it should be a viable option in future for all AS3 devs. 😀

TeotiGraphix

Shaun_Max That is due to the fact right now all AS3 devs have to make a choice on language. Apache Royale is for those that are staying with AS3 and transpiling to js.

So AIR, as far as I know, Apache Royale is only for like single page web apps, if you are not going to web, the project is not for you. I know they were pushing SWF gen but I don't know how deep they went in the direction of supporting a full SWF target and UI framework like they already did with the javascript target output.

Apples and oranges right now with AIR and Apache Royale.

Again, Apache Royale IMHO is for devs that want to use AS3(existing) for JS dev using the UI framework developed by the Apache Royale project for use in the browser (without plugin).

Dimensionscape

TeotiGraphix Im not very familiar with Royale. Couldnt you technically build Electron style apps for desktop etc?

TeotiGraphix

Dimensionscape Im not very familiar with Royale. Couldnt you technically build Electron style apps for desktop etc?

Possibly, the first back end emitter I wrote was a plain vanilla AS3 to JS emitter to unit test with after I wrote all unit tests for the as3 emitter. Yup the way I tested was parsing AS3 into emitted AS3(and AST). 🙂 Then tested the result. I really love lexers/parsers/compilers. 🙂 In my Github there is a full grammar I wrote for AS3 language and antlr. (JASBlocks/ASBlocks read-write AS3 DOM)

That is why it seems like low level Haxe is in my not to distant future. If I could combine the power of Haxe multi-platform and create a multi platform audio engine, I think people would like that. I seem to remember this coming up before.

joshtynjala

Dimensionscape Couldnt you technically build Electron style apps for desktop etc?

Yes, and Node.js for command line apps too. I know of someone putting together an example of how to use Royale with Electron. As far as I know, he's the first one to give it a proper attempt.

hugo

This post reference Apache Royale many times and I use AIR only for Apps (not games) and Flex for many years now.
I started with AIR + FB 2 or 3 (latter 4.7) from the beginning and on that time my thoughts was that Flash will disappear (unfortunately, I was not wrong).
HTML5 became famous and FB it's clear as crystal ball that it's abandonware.
It took me 1 week to use IntelliJ (version 14 on that time) until today (the first tool from Adobe that I left).
Later, I needed a Web interface (it's a very simple use case and it's not the main UI), so I did it with pure HTML5/JS (the only addition was basically jQuery). You may think that I'm crazy but I'm not depending on a fancy JS library that it's like a Fenix (born and die) and it's work very, very well for me.
Later, I needed a Mobile interface (so a specific module of the main application) but I had only 2 about weeks to implement it (it was 2 years ago) and AIR it was entering on pure maintenance mode, despite of other people may argue (and I'm being nice), so I built that Mobile AIR in a record time.
I need now a second edition of my App with a complete new UI a much more features and time.
I was planing this for a long time and I started recently with Xamarin (again, a get rid of Adobe on Mobile for good).
The missing puzzle for me it's AIR on Desktop and ironically it's the must difficult one, on contrary to most developers that use for mobile.

I already evaluate Apache Royale (it's in a alpha release for years).
Basically, I felt that I cannot ask anything to does guys that someone will thru a stone, always with the same story "you can do your self and donate the code to Apache Flex".
HTML5 it's for websites and not to mobile or desktop Apps.
.NET don't have nothing to Windows and non-Windows UI (perhaps in the future).
Recently, I checked Haxe/OpenFl and I got a very good felling about it but then I saw that the gap of XML UI and it's and issue that completely void this option.
Then, I saw this post.
I can help more, with paying a fee, than donate code (perhaps I would even take time of the author, with issues) and for what I have seen so far, if there someone can do it is the author of Feathers UI (I hope, I'm correct for my own good).

Apache Royale have few guys and probably too much good to listen dummies (not all).

joshtynjala

I'm excited for Tuesday! The Feathers UI Kickstarter will launch at 8:00am in the US Pacific time zone (GMT-7) on June 25, 2019.

2dguy

joshtynjala The Feathers UI

Can you provide a bit of comparison regarding the rendering performance of your Feathers/Haxe/OpenFL vs Feathers/Air/Starling? I'm curious if you're finding the new pipeline about equal or better than before. Thanks!

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